Ethan Evans (ex-Amazon VP,
@EthanEvansVP) on getting caught empire building by Jeff Bezos:
Me: Because you had so much success as a VP, did you do empire building?
Ethan: "The human mind is great at rationalizing. I think in hindsight, I for sure did some empire building. But at the time, you probably don't tell yourself you're empire building.
What you tell yourself is, with all these people, I could do so much more, right? You frame it as, man, I have all these great ideas. We've got a big backlog. If only I had 375 more people, imagine what we could do.
And it's not your budget. So why not ask for it? So I got totally burned on this.
When we were growing Amazon Appstore, we had launched the store and we had our annual meeting with Bezos. We took him this huge ask for all these people.
I think we had nobody in marketing. We had no dedicated marketers because we had started this lean team. It was something absurd like we need 25 marketing people. And, this is not exactly right, but it's like we need 5 PR people. We had this idea: we're operating in 5 countries, we need 1 PR person per country.
Well, Jeff tore into us. He asked a couple questions like, what are these people going to do? What are they actually going to do? And our answers fell apart.
He asked one question, we gave a crappy answer, and you could tell he's like, hmm. A second later he asked another question, and we gave another crappy answer. And he's like, 'Okay, I don't believe any of your numbers from here on. I've asked you two questions. They were both nonsense.
Go back and bring me a sheet where the maximum size of any bucket of anything you're asking for is two or three people, and it says exactly what they're going to do. And I will go through that line by line and tell you what you can have.'
And that's what he did. He just literally, with a red pen, with all of his direct leaders watching: no, 3, none, 2, okay... and just took us over the coals.
He wasn't wrong. He was actually right. I was relatively newer. One of my managers was newer. We had gotten big eyes because we'd launched the project and thought, well, let's see what we can do with this. It's a good project. Let's see what they want to do. And what we found out was not very much. They wanted us to be lean."
I don't think you'll find another conversation like this on the internet
I asked Ethan Evans (ex-Amazon VP) questions about common situations in corporate politics but they get increasingly darker
In this episode:
• How he got burned by Bezos for empire building
• How to be recognized in collaborations
• How to reject work that isn't impactful
• Unusual firing stories with HR (e.g. human poop)
• How to handle bad managers and political peers
• Top book recommendation for power dynamics
And much more, this episode was my longest conversation so far
Where to watch:
• YouTube -
• Spotify -
• Apple Podcasts -
• Transcript -
Thank you to the sponsor of this episode for supporting my work:
• WorkOS: makes your app Enterprise Ready with easy to use APIs to add SSO, SCIM, RBAC, and more in just a few lines of code, check them out at
Chapters:
00:00 Intro
00:42 How to receive credit for your work
19:18 Ways for quiet people to get visibility
21:32 How to be trusted for top projects
29:52 How to defend from others taking your project
36:13 How to reject bad projects
44:10 How to be first for promo
55:35 How to handle managers that dislike career growth talk
01:06:30 What if your manager is in the way
01:15:43 Did he ever have overly political reports
01:28:06 How to fire a bad manager
01:35:16 What gives you leverage
01:43:41 How to defend against peers undermining you
01:50:24 What if everyone is good at politics
01:55:11 How Jeff Bezos burned him for empire building
02:03:27 How to retain your headcount
02:07:31 Career recommendations for the current landscape
02:15:11 How to avoid negative layoff optics
02:18:39 How to develop executive presence
02:29:25 How to network in a natural way
02:33:30 How to network with powerful people
02:41:01 How to learn hidden incentives
02:44:43 What happens behind the scenes with HR
02:50:13 Did he burn people to get ahead
02:53:24 What he says to people who hate politics
02:59:03 Top book recommendations on power dynamics
03:00:45 How he would speedrun career growth today
03:06:56 Outro
더 보기