It’s an exciting time for Visa’s stablecoin business. Visa CEO Ryan McInerney shared some updates on our strategy and traction on yesterday’s earnings call.
🚨 Ep. 106 of
@TokenizedPod: Microsoft & Goldman Sachs Say No to Tokenized Stocks
@cuysheffield is joined by:
👉
@nlevine19, Investment Partner,
@a16z Crypto
👉 Cameron Drinkwater, Chief Product & Operations Officer,
@SPDJIndices
👉
@liamihorne, Product & Engineering,
@tempo
To discuss:
🧠 OCC GENIUS Act rules on stablecoin yield and rewards programs
🔎 CLARITY Act loophole and alternative ways to earn stablecoin yield
🏦 J.P. Morgan’s tokenized deposits and interoperability with stablecoins
🏛️ S&P's programmable tokenized index funds and automated portfolio rebalancing
🌐 Tempo Zones balancing institutional privacy and public blockchain interoperability
📃 S&P’s OpenZeppelin acquisition and the future of smart contract security
🤖 AI-driven cyberattacks and growing demand for crypto security expertise
💳 Visa & Mesh enabling embedded stablecoin wallet payments at global merchants
❗️ Major companies objecting to tokenized stock trading on OKX ICE
🤝 Tokenized equities enabling direct shareholder relationships and loyalty rewards
***
Timestamps:
00:00 Introduction
02:26 OCC GENIUS Act rules on stablecoin yield and rewards programs
05:52 CLARITY Act loophole and alternative ways to earn stablecoin yield
10:00 J.P. Morgan’s tokenized deposits and interoperability with stablecoins
14:24 S&P's programmable tokenized index funds and automated portfolio rebalancing
17:39 Tempo Zones balancing institutional privacy and public blockchain interoperability
20:00 S&P’s OpenZeppelin acquisition and the future of smart contract security
25:00 AI-driven cyberattacks and growing demand for crypto security expertise
29:01 Visa & Mesh enabling embedded stablecoin wallet payments at global merchants
35:00 Major companies objecting to tokenized stock trading on OKX ICE
45:22 Tokenized equities enabling direct shareholder relationships and loyalty rewards
***
👉𝘚𝘦𝘢𝘳𝘤𝘩 '𝘛𝘰𝘬𝘦𝘯𝘪𝘻𝘦𝘥 𝘗𝘰𝘥𝘤𝘢𝘴𝘵' 𝘖𝘯 𝘠𝘰𝘶𝘛𝘶𝘣𝘦. 𝘈𝘱𝘱𝘭𝘦, 𝘚𝘱𝘰𝘵𝘪𝘧𝘺 𝘰𝘳 𝘢𝘯𝘺 𝘗𝘰𝘥𝘤𝘢𝘴𝘵 𝘗𝘭𝘢𝘺𝘦𝘳! 👈
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The future of the world’s economy and defenses will be based on SWARMS
Those who can organize and direct swarms of agents controlling intelligence and swarms of physical machines will be unlike any power we’ve seen in history
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My take on a16z crypto moving into frontier tech.
First, I'll always be grateful to a16z for helping validate the space back in 2013 when Chris Dixon led their investment into Coinbase, which got me even more excited about crypto.
But the final nail in the coffin for my previous career, and what ultimately pushed me to pivot my entire career into Bitcoin, was Marc Andreessen's 2014 NYT oped, Why Bitcoin Matters. If you haven't read it, suggest reading it. It's still important to this day.
A lot of people have probably forgotten, but in those days we were all just looking for external validation. Very few institutions or funds were willing to publicly endorse crypto, and two of the funds that took a real brand risk were a16z and USV.
Since then, we've seen some of the most incredible talent enter the space and fundamentally reshaped what crypto is today.
You can actually argue that a lot of the AI infrastructure development we're seeing today wouldn't be where it is without Bitcoin mining infrastructure and the talent that flowed from crypto into AI. There is a real connection between the two industries that I don't think gets enough credit.
Now, moving from crypto into frontier tech, whether that's robotics, bio, AI, energy, compute etc just means to me that the talent and muscle we developed building crypto over the past decade can now be used to build across all of frontier tech.
We spent years building something that was nascent, misunderstood, and in many cases hated by the world. We developed thick skin, continued investing and building, and had to constantly show the world why this tech mattered. Even during thanksgiving dinners.
And I think that makes us uniquely suited to build frontier tech.
An example is data centers. Today, people and governments are increasingly pushing back against them. Well, people and governments hated crypto too, but we continued to invest and build, and now almost all of trad finance is embracing crypto in some capacity.
I believe frontier tech represents the next generation of pirates in technology. People willing to build things that are nascent, misunderstood, and sometimes hated by the world.
We're going to be hated and loved along the way, but we're going to keep building cool shit that the world hasn't recognized the importance of yet.
And crypto taught me that the world usually doesn't recognize the importance of new tech until years later which is why I stay close to talent
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Over the next few years I could see a third kind of retention here beyond desire and dependency, which is incremental income.
For some cohorts of consumers, personal agents could look more like a digital Taskrabbit, where your agent finds you opportunities to earn based on your unique interests and expertise, and you keep coming back because it pays you.
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i've been talking to a lot of normal ppl outside of tech about personal agents & the convos have been incredibly fascinating, particularly w.r.t. to retention.
most consumer products typically have one of two types of retention, one is desire driven which is just pure dopamine (like insta, tiktok, games). they often don't even need notifications because you know there is a reward for your desire always waiting. the second is dependency driven, like emails, calendars, even credit cards & banking. most ppl have to do this, it's not something they necessarily desire (unless they are a sociopath).
the challenge with personal ai agents right now is that they occupy a weird third space where they aren't emotionally rewarding most of the time to become entertainment like the first category, & they're not reliable / indispensable enough to become pure infra. i.e. they fail, & there is a lot of friction. outside of pure research driven tasks, even one failure is often enough to not come back for the utility value prop.
which is why i think vertical agents that focus on making your life more interesting & entertaining are worth deep exploration still. & even very focused vertically integrated utility agents that work reliably will still be in demand. tons of ppl still think in jobs to be done when reaching for anything & with general purpose agents that's just not as crisp yet on what those critical jobs are.
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Agents are eating discovery, so what happens to marketplaces?
I see two futures:
1/ Marketplaces build their own agents, and each one stays the destination for search
2/ Agent-to-agent infra is built out and my agent searches across marketplaces and suppliers via API
Future 1: Each marketplace has an agent
Resy has an agent. I text it in iMessage, use it in the app, or have my personal agent talk to it. Resy is still the destination for reservations in my mind.
> Likeliest where brand and taste matter or supply is exclusive: restaurants, events, fashion
Future 2: Marketplaces become suppliers behind my agent
I tell my agent I need a doctor. It checks my insurance, location, and medical history, queries across marketplaces/practices, verifies credentials, and brings back three options. I approve one, and booking happens between agents. I never see the exchange. My agent is my entrypoint, and the marketplace is a supplier behind the scenes that I never see.
> Likeliest where supply is fragmented and fit matters more than brand: care, in-home help, moving, home repair
IMO these aren’t mutually exclusive. Both can exist, but they compete for the entrypoint. Under 1, the marketplace still owns the relationship and brand in my mind. Under 2, it’s one source - supply becomes headless to me.
Today, marketplaces do four main jobs: discovery, trust, transaction, and operations. With discovery melting away, the value moves to what sits underneath the marketplace:
> Trust and verification layers agents can query (credentials, identity, insurance, outcomes)
> Supply-side agents that manage availability, pricing, and listings across channels
> Structured-data registries for fragmented categories (care, home services, specialty health)
> Agent-to-agent transaction rails: payments, dispute resolution
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Dee Hock (Visa founder) built a world in which you can transact with anyone, anywhere, in a trusted fashion.
His vision for a global network transcends the business that Visa became: it created many trillions in shareholder value for companies he could never have envisioned and never could have existed without it.
His framework below is must read for anyone trying to comprehend our current moment.
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PFPs make a lot more sense for agent swarms than for people
NFTs are an area of crypto that i think deserves another look
the 2021 boom and subsequent crash left a lot of people with a negative view of them, but the underlying concept still makes sense to me
as more businesses move onchain, NFTs could become a useful way to represent ownership, experiment with revenue sharing and build communities around products
i expect there's still a lot of room for experimentation beyond the NFT models we saw last cycle
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Massive opportunity for onchain receivable-backed credit. Excited to share more about what we are building here soon.
Stablecoin payments grew 45% to $482B this year, while supply grew 0.4%.
Tim Conard from
@Visa shared his perspective in our Q3 State of Stablecoins & Payments report.
Read the full quote:
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One of my favorite Dee Hock frameworks is what he called trying to master the "four ways of looking at things: As they were, as they are, as they might become, and as they ought to be."
Through that lens, it's easy to see AI as a technology driving significant change between the way the economy worked five years ago and the way it works today.
It's also easy to speculate on where it might lead, especially given the many real risks and challenges around AI alignment.
But I'd argue the most important thing anyone can do is develop a perspective on how it "ought to be," and then build toward that.
To me, AI shouldn't just be a technology that accelerates the automation of tasks humans used to do.
It ought to supercharge our ability to coordinate economic activity, giving people leverage to connect their unique expertise, taste, and data traces with the people and companies that need them.
While the AI data labeling ecosystem is one of the first examples of new economic activity with people and companies getting paid by labs for their expertise or data traces, I'd love to see an explosion in AI-enabled freelancers across other sectors of the economy.
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How do you pay out pesos in Mexico without keeping pesos in a Mexican bank account?
On
@TokenizedPod,
@cuysheffield put that question to
@manueljgodoym of
@Felixpago.
Wise-style remittance models fund local accounts in every corridor ahead of time.
Félix sends USDC and buys pesos in a 24/7 market when the payout happens, at an FX rate Manuel says comes close to interbank.
Cuy names the trade-off: no capital sits idle in each country, but you need a liquidity partner on the receiving side.
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Great to see the first lending market for OUSD go live. Lend OUSD against cBTC in a vault curated by
@SentoraHQ on
@tempo
$42.5M in OUSD deposited so far
OUSD launched on September 30 with over $1B in committed liquidity from Coinbase, Mastercard, Stripe, and Visa, among others.
Today, we’re excited to launch Sentora's new OUSD
@Morpho Vault on
@tempo.
Read more:
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Excited to work with
@meshpay as the first stablecoin partner to integrate Visa Pay to create a native payment experience for users to spend stablecoins at Visa merchants
Amazing finish. Go bucks!
INDIANA HAD THE GAME WINNING TOUCHDOWN
BUT HE WAS OUT OF BOUNDS
WHAT DID WE JUST WITNESS!?
Incredibly high signal podcast on the evolving payment infrastructure powering agentic commerce with
@terryangelos and
@arampell
The wallet wars are here.
Very Good Security chief strategy officer Terry Angelos joins a16z's Alex Rampell, his TrialPay co-founder from back in 2006 (TrialPay was later acquired by Visa), to discuss how agents are learning to spend money.
"Agents have all of a sudden become significantly more helpful and useful because they effectively have arms and legs, which are payment credentials."
VGS holds the payment credentials behind about 1/3 of all e-commerce, and now it's helping AI agents pay merchants. If you've bought anything online, there's a good chance VGS has already helped keep your card safe.
In the last three months, Terry says agents went from "spectators to actors." Once an agent has your payment credentials, it can book the piano teacher it previously could only find and recommend.
Now Stripe's Link, Shopify's Shop Pay, and PayPal are racing to connect to agents. It's all headed toward open standards from the card networks: agentic tokens that let an agent pay with your actual card.
VGS went from zero agentic tokens to a few million a week in three months.
0:55 From TrialPay to Visa to VGS
2:05 How VGS vaults 1/3 of e-commerce
6:05 Why big merchants use 3-5 processors
9:55 Why AI agents need a payment vault
12:15 Agents go from "spectators to actors"
13:40 The wallet wars, old and new
19:55 Walled gardens vs open standards
23:55 How agents can pay with your real card
26:40 Your saved card goes multiplayer
29:40 How do you trust an agent's purchase?
32:35 Who pays when your agent gets it wrong
35:40 Why Amazon blocks agents
39:50 What's overhyped and underhyped
43:35 When merchants get agents too
45:40 Why agents could break card rewards
47:00 VGS's eras: vault, updates, network
@terryangelos @arampell
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Great framing - “Your product now has to sell itself twice. First the agent has to pick it, then the human has to trust that pick enough to say yes.”
More SF observations:
1. Seeing the word "inference" on billboards in SF still blows my mind. 99.9% of america has no idea what inference is and I wonder how many know what an agent is. Will Muse, Instinct, Dots etc will change that over the next 12 months?
2. You know who doesn't get enough credit? Manus. In March 2025 they shipped the blueprint for AI agents: every task gets its own computer in the cloud, you can watch it work, it writes a todo list and checks it off, and you walk away while it finishes. So much of what we use today runs on those ideas!
3. Your product now has to sell itself twice. First the agent has to pick it, then the human has to trust that pick enough to say yes.
4. I was talking to a guy who told me we should just destroy all the data centers. I think that sentiment is more common than people in SF realize. You can already see some of the big AI companies adjusting positioning their AI as something that helps people and gives them more time/cures for cancers etc.
5. AI is making people work 5x faster (at least), so for freelancers/agencies that charge per hour you're earning 5x less per unit of work. But your rate is the same? I think a lot of freelancers and agencies are about to have to rethink how they price.
6. Running a company now feels kinda dystopian sometimes, especially with a small team of a few humans and a lot of agents. Some days the Slack channel is mostly bots reporting to each other, and you're the only one in the room with a pulse.
7. Every product company is turning into a product studio. I see it firsthand as a co-founder of
@meetLCA , which is basically a Labs as a Service company incubating new products for companies. (DM me if you want to work together in 2027).
8. Personal software is exploding. People at every company are building their own little tools for their own jobs. It's amazing for productivity and a nightmare for IT, because nobody knows what's running or who owns it.
9. Revenue per human is the new flex. Founders used to brag about headcount. Now they brag about how much they're doing with how few people.
11. More founders are using agents for customer research. Agents run the interviews, read every support ticket and summarize what people are begging for. Synthetic market research is the new thing.
12. Shipping technology that actually takes 3-6 months with unique partnerships that are hard to replicate. So, partnerships are sooo back!
13. Insane amount of young people (22 or younger) making absurds amounts of money. At least it feels that way. Never seen anything like that, even during mobile era.
14. Only 2% of the US is paying for AI products, but it feels like 110% SF is.
15. Advice for college grads used to be “follow your passion” and now it’s follow careers that are not document- driven, rules-bound and verifiable
16. Seeing the word inference on billboards in SF still blows my mind.
17. Agents paying for things feels futuristic. I think its coming, only a matter of time, but I’m wondering when it becomes mainstream. 2027?
18. Lots of talk about proactive agents being the next phase of personal agents. Right now you ask your agent to do something. In 2027, it’s all going to be about noticing things (context/memory) and acting first. "Your flight got delayed, I already rebooked you."
19. The quote "what the smartest people do on the weekend is what everyone else will do during the week in 10 years." by Chris Dixon. It feels like that length of time isnt 10 years anymore, its 12 months.
20. This is the most asymmetric window I've ever seen in business.
My DMs are open. Respond to the most interesting ones.
Loved my trip to SF. Until next time. Maybe NYC next?
Thank you for everything.
I'm rooting for you.
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Love
@alexandr_wang's positioning that "Muse makes you money." But most of the use cases I'm seeing today (canceling subscriptions, renegotiating bills) are really "Muse saves you money."
Has anyone actually used Muse to generate income? If so, how?
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Great to see Visa Direct stablecoin pre-funding in production with Inyo Global as the first enabler
Cool concept, excited to see "groupon for agents" experiments that create agent collectives to aggregate purchase demand and then negotiate discounts with merchants across verticals
Instead of everyone booking travel through their agent solo, why can't I add my agent to a collective that can buy out a resort for a weekend at a discount
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