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steve hsu
@hsu_steve
Physicist, AI Founder, Manifold Podcast
0 Following    48.7K Followers
Some thoughts on latest AA v5 index rankings. 1. DS 1017 performance on (new) FrontierCode 2.0 is impressive - can't be the result of benchmaxxing: close to Fable 5.1, slightly ahead of Argon and Kimi 3.1 2. Poor science+math performance of Chinese models dropped them signicantly in new index relative to US frontier models. I've been talking to a lot of Chinese labs recently and they have not prioritized this area at all. They've been very focused on coding+agentic capability. Unlike the big US labs they don't have teams of scientists and math guys pushing in this direction. I predict they will reprioritize, bc of the OAI math breakthroughs and the poor AA v5 scores. Their attitude seems to have been: for math, once IMO Gold level achieved, diminishing returns to further math capability improvements. Same with basic science. Economic returns all concentrated in coding and agentic tasks. Even now I doubt they will move more than 10% of their specialized model capability resources toward math+science. New evals test frontier-level capability in math and physics, exposing the Chinese models as far behind Astra and Opus 5.5. 3. Gemini Carbon scores are amazing. Hope there is now a GOOG model at the frontier that I can use in my research! I strongly believe that adversarial verification of math+phys results by the best models is much better than human peer review.
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Don't Cry - BUILD! 🦾 Leading China’s mathematicians joined forces in Beijing on Sunday to launch an alliance aimed at integrating artificial intelligence into mathematical research. It will bring together eight leading institutions and aims to create a network of more than 1,000 scientists. The alliance will focus on developing specialised AI models for mathematics, using the technology to generate conjectures and formalise proofs, and building systems whose reasoning could be more easily interpreted.
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Michael I. Jordan, machine learning demigod, UC Berkeley ... the young people who work at these companies operate in a world [Silicon Valley, Berkeley, etc.] where these kinds of discussions are commonplace. Many of them aren’t really engineers; they come from the humanities, philosophy, or other disciplines. They’re 25 years old, they’re naive, they don’t do engineering work, they’ve never worked at large companies where real products are developed for real people, with discipline. And they get together, a bit like in Parisian cafés in the 1920s, to talk about these grand science-fiction ideas. When these young people resign, they know they’re going to attract attention. It allows them to feel virtuous and to be seen as very important figures. They claim to be giving up money, but in reality, they already have their stock options. So all of this is a grand moralizing performance that doesn’t serve the real objective it claims to pursue. There’s a great deal of naiveté here, which goes hand in hand with a certain cynicism…
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AI Boom or Bust? – Manifold #122# Are we in an AI bubble? Analysis of AI CapEx, revenues, OAI+ANT burn rates. AI revenue has to reach $ TRILLIONS per annum within the next few years (an increase of > 10x; compare total global software revenue of $1.5T today), or else the current CapEx spend will turn out to be a huge misallocation. Separately, even if total AI revenue reaches these levels, OAI and ANT could still be overvalued due to revenue/margin compression from competition with other US or Chinese labs. Chapters: (00:00) - Conference Takeaways (03:21) - AI Capability Leap (07:36) - Both Things True (08:46) - CapEx Debt Risks (10:31) - Trillion Revenue Hurdle (18:32) - Spend Plateau Signals (31:45) - IPO and Bubble Fallout
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These are legit impressive... Is there a CritPt score?
Gemini 4 Argon is our next era of frontier intelligence. It shows significant improvements across benchmarks, setting a new state of the art for real-world long-horizon software engineering tasks.
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DeepSeek: "...open-sourcing the infrastructure components for Huawei's Ascend computing platform, including the TileLang high-level language compiler, computing libraries, and distributed communication libraries. All components correspond one-to-one with the previously open-source components for the NVIDIA platform. TileLang has already been validated on NVIDIA platforms and currently powers the majority of the operators used in training DeepSeek’s state-of-the-art V4 series models." Qwen says: Currently, DeepSeek uses a hybrid training strategy: NVIDIA for the massive 33T token pre-training phase, and Huawei Ascend for post-training (RLHF/SFT) and inference. However, with DeepSeek recently ordering 160,000 next-generation Ascend 950DT/960 chips, the company is building the infrastructure to move pre-training to Ascend by 2027, once the new chips support the necessary low-precision (FP4) training formats.
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GLM-5.3 has helped defend 389 open-source projects, with 4,249 potential vulnerabilities found so far. OpenVuln is still running. The service remains free, and findings go privately to maintainers.
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ANT: GLM-5.3 is “the most cyber-capable open-weight model released to date” and it lags the US frontier by about four months on an aggregate of CAISI’s cyber benchmarks.
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Informative macroeconomics doom discussion about China The guest is actually reasonable (despite click bait YT title) and Setser knows what he is talking about. At ~20m: strongest pro/con Industrial Maximalism arguments. Role-playing Xi; natsec and industrialism goals contra normie econ view. Good steel-man exercise; should not be dismissed due to bias.
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Grok on September Ramp data. ANT S-1 reports $65B annualized revenue run rate based on July data. Effective price: $1.15 → $0.68 per million tokens from the March peak (−41%). Top 1% spend per employee: $7,976 → $7,205 in August (−9.7%). New paid adoption still rising, but slowly: Anthropic +0.34pp to 43.8%, OpenAI +0.09pp to 39.8%. Frontier-model token share off an August peak: ~53% → ~45%, with volume shifting into cheaper Sonnet/Terra-class models.
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If this data from @tickerplus is even broadly correct, isn't this really, really bad?
Shouldn't their S-1 clarify whether this is accurate? Perhaps not required by law, but in the public interest!
If this data from @tickerplus is even broadly correct, isn't this really, really bad?
Claude corrects puzzle from famous Witten, Wilczek, and Halperin 1989 paper on high-Tc superconductors. In my experience, GPT and Claude have superhuman capability in theoretical physics as well as math now. 🦾🧠😱
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An extremely instructive development in the use of AI in theoretical physics just emerged from the University of Chicago, thanks to Dam Son-- everybody and anybody seriously interested in theoretical physics should read this and ponder its implications
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Even these estimates could be high bc during a bubble investor and VC funding supports LLM use that may not have real economic benefits and will go away after the bubble pops.
World seems to have woken up to the idea that AI capex actually needs a return at some point. People now realise that roughly $2-3trn of revenue will be needed annually, quite soon. But the conversation about what counts as "AI revenue" is still highly unsophisticated. People will say e.g. "Amazon's cloud business is doing really well, ergo AI is seeing great ROI". No. What you need is revenue EXTERNAL or DOWNSTREAM to the system, ie from ordinary businesses subscribing to models. @darioperkins good on this. A lot of Amazon cloud revenue is just Anthropic buying stuff How much is "proper" AI revenue? In the summer we made four estimates. We need more work to make these estimates better/more accurate! @hsu_steve @lugaricano @weakinstrument
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Note China is at the top for "AI products make me excited" and at the bottom for "AI will take my job" 🤔 Anglophone countries are most afraid of AI - possibly because rationalists and EAs mostly write in English 😉
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Reminder: AI capabilities are advancing rapidly AND we might be in the midst of a huge capex financial bubble... AI adoption (= revenues, productivity) can lag capabilities by years. Depreciation on GPUs is of order years (4? 6?) so a lag like this is enough to DESTROY leveraged (debt-fueled) bets 🤔 Remember, HUMANS ARE IN THE LOOP. They can delay adoption or power supplies to DCs or create regulatory constraints. The sensitivity timescale for LEVERAGED BETS is smaller than the delays humans can impose on AI adoption/scaling. Even if humans don't DELIBERATELY delay productive use of AI, human leaders and organizations may STILL TAKE YEARS to figure out how to effectively use AI in the real economy ...
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BOTH THINGS CAN BE TRUE AT THE SAME TIME: 1. AI capabilities are real and advancing rapidly 2. It will take longer than singularity or fast-takeoff people think for AI to affect real productivity in the economy, or generate $trillion revenues for AI labs (although capex investment for the future already drives this much money into data center and semiconductor infrastructure). #2# is related to human gatekeeping and outright resistance to technology, as well as the difficulty in understanding the best way to use AI in practical settings. It can take years for existing companies (let alone educational institutions) to adapt to new technology.
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Gradual Disempowerment: Use AI, or let your rivals outcompete you. FT: Multinational companies are starting to use countries’ “AI openness” to decide where to invest Even if NOTHING GOES WRONG (the AIs are aligned to your interests, are not EVIL) you will VOLUNTARILY turn over more and more of your decision making to AI.
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Physicist @hsu_steve warns humanity may surrender power to AI completely voluntarily because the alternative is getting crushed by competitors who use it: "Gradual disempowerment, which I think people are intuitively aware of, but usually they've not seen it fully formulated this way." "Every single element of our society, whether you're a corporation, a military, a government, or even an individual trying to do well on the dating apps, if you have access to a superior intelligence, an AI, that you need to compete against all the other players, you're gonna start using that AI." "Gradually, even if nothing goes wrong, even if there's no evil AI or there's no AI hacking your systems, you literally are gonna surrender power to it because you will get better outcomes. If you don't surrender power to it, your competitors are gonna beat you. They're gonna crush you." "That's gradual disempowerment. It's gonna happen completely voluntarily as people just hand over power to AI."
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Feels like stuff is starting to happen. Bond guys running numbers, not vibe investors 🙄
🦔Oracle's 5-year credit default swap spread just hit a record 230 basis points, more than four times the broader investment-grade index at 55 bps. The spread has quadrupled in the past year and now exceeds financial crisis levels from 2008. For comparison, Turkey's sovereign CDS sits at 245 bps. Oracle is one notch above junk and the credit market is pricing it as a bigger risk than it was during the worst financial crisis in modern history. My Take Oracle's CDS is priced worse than 2008 and Ellison is still signing hundred-billion-dollar AI deals. I think he's operating on the assumption that Oracle is too big and too embedded in government IT systems to be allowed to fail. That may end up being true, but it's a bet that someone else covers the downside rather than a financial strategy. S&P cut Oracle to BBB- in July and said they "underestimated the scale of the investments required." One more notch and Oracle is junk-rated. Every institutional fund with an investment-grade mandate would have to sell, and that's a forced liquidation Oracle isn't prepared for. Half the backlog is OpenAI, which by its own pre-IPO numbers burns $278 billion more than it takes in through 2030. I don't think Ellison has a plan for what happens if S&P downgrades him and OpenAI can't pay on schedule at the same time. And I think both of those are more likely than the stock price assumes. Hedgie🤗
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Suddenly everyone is running the numbers...
This could be a problem: Goldman sensitivity table shows that in a worst case scenario where hyperscaler ROIC on capex is 0 (token costs collapse, token demand goes to open models, etc) they still need to spend $920BN every year just to cover depreciation and running costs
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The chart takes AI capex (Amazon, Google, Meta, Microsoft, Oracle + SpaceX, accumulated through each year) as an input, then converts it into the perpetual annual revenue needed for a 10% return under each model’s assumptions about depreciation, opex, and return metric. Annual revenue required is on the y-axis; will exceed $1 trillion per year in 2027.
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Lance Dixon: "I would assert that Claude understands our 2019 and 2023 papers better than any human, aside from my co-authors." Claude calculated the nine-loop MHV six-particle amplitude in planar N=4 super Yang-Mills.
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Wow, I just found out that our team has been scooped by @AnthropicAI See the addendum of the post “How does it feel to be scooped by a machine?” written by my collaborator Lance Dixon (who was under NDA while checking the result) I’m still processing, but not entirely surprised. I do I wish we had the time in the resources to commit to it.
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