> Pricing in China has become so competitive that it pushes Chinese labs to find shortcuts, i.e., distillation
I disagree with this completely, "involution" is typical China watcher thought terminating cliche and particularly meaningless here. First, the logic of distillation is vastly simpler, American labs are far ahead and their models are not just developed with a lot more compute but make use of the high-quality data Chinese labs haven't had the opportunity to acquire yet, so using them to accelerate the progress is a natural solution. The core pressure is *international competition*, not domestic margin slashing. Claude is still massively popular and regarded in China, despite Dario trying his best to reject this income. If Chinese models fall further behind, the Chinese consumers will be utilizing Western models even more; and the only response would be to, indeed, slash margins and compete on price alone, in the normal involution fashion.
But more importantly, Chinese models are not cheap at all.
I've just completed a natural experiment, ran out of OCG $10 subscription, almost exclusively burning V4.1F – one of the most cost-efficient ways available to use the most compute-efficient Chinese model on the market. The estimated API rate would have been $76.5. It is *massively* subsidized. Indeed, it's likely below DeepSeek's own boundary of profitability. There are many ways to do this mafs but consider that they've reported one GPU printing $38/hr. In other words I've used up about 2 GPU-hours' worth.
[Another way: in that same paragraph DeepSeek reports 155T tokens/day off a single server, which as previously established has at least ≈2400 GPUs. 64B/GPU/day, 2.66B/hour. This way we get even worse results for DS, read on].
How much for 2 hours of GB200? is it more or less than $10? At rental prices it's a straight loss. But they own hardware. How does it work in the most optimistic case? A GB200 that makes you $5/hour is a GB200 that makes you $43.8K under 100% utilization over a year. Retail unit price like $65K, 1833 W/GPU in a rack, $0.080/kWh state-subsidized electricity, so $1300/year on GPU power alone, add a bunch of associated expenses, and we arrive at about 2 years to breaking even on compute, a far cry from Liang's target of 10 months.
Except GB200s in China are smuggled with an unhinged markup and easily go above $200K. If this were the main channel of revenue, it will JUST NEVER BREAK EVEN, by the time you approach net profit your hardware is obsolete.
But as I've said, it's not a story of involution. What volume has that virtual, subsidized $76.5 bought me? A paltry ≈7B "tokens", 98% cache hits, 107M in 35.3M out. Given that input is 1/4 the output for DS, we can normalize to 62M total "out". 6.2M tokens per $1 of actual payment. Back in Jan 26,
@she_llac had reconstructed Anthropic's subscription pricing: on Pro plans, you were getting max 0,54M *OPUS* tokens per $1, with cache hits entirely free, ie infinitely cheaper than Whale API's $0.003/0.006 (which is why I'm ignoring them as well; OpenAI has made cache virtually free now, too, though we can quibble about API vs chat, 72h vs 12h etc). So the difference per token is about 11.5x. That's a lot, but Claude Opus tokens have way more utility. Since then, Anthropic subscription kept getting *more* efficient. What are we getting these days? $5K worth of API on $100 sub? $7000? Haven't been checking.
…I need to go so will leave the remaining mafs to those interested. My point is: American labs have bodied Chinese ones. More capability, better hardware, more money to burn result in a situation where the most efficient Chinese model *on the most subsidized plan* is very close in price per token to the best American model currently served; Kimi or Zhipu are nowhere in sight.
If you think, like I do, that DeepSeek is actually very efficient and Opus costs substantially more per token than a 8/16B active Flash tier, then it can be argued that *Americans* are doing involution, and not the Chinese.